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ordinary people are seeing extraordinary

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things in our skies but how has it

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changed those involved from author Ryan

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spread somewhere in the skies a human

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approach to an alien phenomenon is a

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personal journey that also weaves

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together a story of stories furiously

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pumping new blood into the heart of

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these mysteries one experience at a time

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now available on Amazon in paperback and

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ebook for more information visit

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somewhere in the skies calm if somewhere

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[Music]

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welcome to somewhere in the skies when

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your host Ryan Sprague today's episode

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is an oldie for some but for many it's

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going to be brand new I am in the middle

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of Nova Scotia right now I just gave a

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presentation so I'm not quite sure how

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good the Internet's going to be for the

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next few days but I did want to get this

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interview out in this episode out to you

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guys on time I will then be going to

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Syracuse in the middle of upstate New

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York for camp where I will have no

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internet so there was no possible of

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getting this out to your guys on time so

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what I'm doing is pre recording this

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this is an old interview that I

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conducted on a different show but it

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again will be brand new to a lot of you

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this interview originally aired I'm into

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the fray radio into the fray is a

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brilliant podcast hosted by Shannon

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Lacroix early on Shannon connected with

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me and said she wanted to learn more

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about UFOs and in turn I wanted to learn

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more about Bigfoot and Loch Ness monster

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ghosts all that weird that we all

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have an interest in you know we joined

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forces and for over 50 episodes of into

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the fray the master of Dark Arts himself

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mr. Sam Sheeran and I we would

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sporadically come on and discuss many

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different topics with Shannon it was

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some of the funnest times I've ever had

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talking about these things Shannon she

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also gave us an outlet to really dive

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deeper into our specialties for Sam it

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was a lot more of the be the paranormal

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the ghost the darker side of all this

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for me it was clearly UFOs Shannon

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started a shoot-off which was called

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into the fray auxilary and I was

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fortunate enough to get to interview the

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person you're about to hear and that is

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Ben Mezrich and he talks all about his

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book the 37th parallel the secret truth

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behind America's UFO highway so a little

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about that Ben Mezrich

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he graduated magna laude from

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Harvard so he is a smart dude he has

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published 18 books including the New

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York Times bestsellers the accidental

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billionaires which was adapted into the

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Academy award-winning film The Social

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Network and he also wrote bringing down

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the house which has sold more than 1.5

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million copies in 12 languages and was

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the basis for the hit movie 21 most

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recently he wrote the national

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bestseller Once Upon a Time in Russia

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today we'll be talking about the 37th

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parallel like I mentioned this interview

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originally aired on into the fray

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auxilary but Shannon was so nice to

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allow me to share it with all of you

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today on somewhere in the skies it is by

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far one of my favorite interviews to

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date about some of the most compelling

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UFO connections ever brought forward

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through the lens of UFO researcher Chuck

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Zukowski some of you may be familiar

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with this guy he's a cattle mutilation

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researcher a UFO researcher and just one

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of the nicest guys I've ever met so

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let's get to the interview please check

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out into the fray radio at into the fray

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radio Calm it's available in our pod

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catchers including this interview but

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I'm gonna share it with all of you today

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here on the show who may not have heard

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of into the fray definitely check it out

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and I hope you enjoy my talk of Ben

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Mezrich all about the 37th parallel I'm

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here today with Ben Mezrich author of

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the 37th parallel the secret truth

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behind America's UFO highway thanks for

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joining us today Ben oh thank you for

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having me I gotta ask with your

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extensive list of books and the topics

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you've covered I'm sure many others have

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asked you this as well what sort of

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veered view towards UFOs this time and

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in particular the story of Chuck

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Zukowski yeah you know I never set out

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to write about UFOs I don't have any

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personal experience and with it I didn't

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know much about the phenomenon

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I basically heard about Chuck from a

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Hollywood producer

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a guy named Oakland who had done the

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movie San Andreas who was a UFO

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enthusiast I guess you'd call him and he

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said have you heard of this guy Chuck as

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a reserve sheriff's deputy in Colorado

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who had been fired from the Sheriff's

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Department after investigating a cattle

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mutilation and you know that was

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intriguing enough for me to to meet with

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him and I was just blown away by the

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story and you know I thought I'd be

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writing about one guy's obsession with

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this crazy world but as I sort of dug

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into the story I found that there's a

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lot in this world that hasn't been

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covered well a lot of stories that

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nobody's really dug in

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and I was just kind of amazed by it all

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and so I sort of went down that rabbit

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hole

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yeah we'll definitely touch on that

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aspect of the the way the mainstream

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perceives these topics what did your

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your publisher think then when you

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brought this idea of writing the book

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about UFOs I mean how much say do they

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really have in your I guess quite a

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quick creative process you know they

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have they have a lot of say in terms of

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whether they'll actually publish

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something but not right well I I didn't

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really talk to them until I'd already

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written up a proposal I sold the movie

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and the book pretty much at the same

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time so it was the kind of situation

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where you know once once I had the whole

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story

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they were pretty blown away by it you

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know it isn't what you necessarily might

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think it's more about Chuck's journey

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into this world about this whole idea of

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the 37th parallel and and about you know

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Roswell and all these kind of

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unexplained things that kind of touch a

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chord and I think we're in a moment in

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history when people are becoming much

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more open to this idea than they used to

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be so overall you know the publisher was

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very much behind it so that's great to

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hear it gives us a saw the writers out

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there hope that these topics will last

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get their due diligence as it were did

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you did you have any interest in UFOs

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prior to this III certainly early in my

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career I worked with the x-files

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television show I would look for them a

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long time ago so I you know I knew a

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little bit about the world but no I

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wouldn't say I really just thought it

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was a bunch of crazy people out in

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cornfields seeing things I really didn't

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know anything about you know the data I

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didn't know about the connection with

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nuclear bases for instance I didn't know

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really know the story behind Roswell I

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didn't know anything about cattle

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mutilation I'd heard nothing about that

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living on the east coast you never even

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heard of it here so it was it was all

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kind of new to me I came in and as an

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outsider and and my goal in this book

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was to introduce it to people who don't

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necessarily know about it so a lot of

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this book is a you know two people who

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probably you know people like you people

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who follow you probably know this stuff

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way better than I did going into this

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but my goal was to sort of open it up to

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a bigger mainstream audience yeah and it

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it was really cool absolutely I mean the

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book is it's very digestible I sort of

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went into it try to let's take the men

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in black memory eraser for instance

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right trying to start fresh you know

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like if I had never heard of this if I

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had these preconceived notions of what

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UFOs are or aren't the people who

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experienced them and you did such a

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wonderful job of making it not not

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mainstream but making it making it

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digestible for those who are just

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getting introduced to the topic I mean

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there's so much information out there

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about UFOs bad information I have to say

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that it's easy to get sort of swallowed

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into it all and not know where to go

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where to turn and I think something like

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this by following one man's journey I

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was the way to go and I I knew Chuck

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personally before I had even heard about

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you writing this book and I was so

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excited to hear that it was about his

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investigations because I've talked to

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many times about what he was doing what

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he was out there doing and it was sort

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of a dream for many of us you have on

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researchers us armchair researchers she

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said at our desks sifting through

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headlines and this and MUFON reports

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Chuck's out their boots on the ground

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investigating them could you could you

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tell us a little about your your first

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impressions of Chuck and how you begin

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to sort of craft this narrative around

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him sure I mean when I first met Chuck

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you know I flew out to Colorado when he

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met me at the Denver Airport and he

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strapped a bulletproof vest on me and

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gave me a gun so we're going out as UFO

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I'm saying at first I thought he was a

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little crazy um I got to know him pretty

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well you know he's actually a pretty

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logical guy he has a science background

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worked as a microchip engineer when he

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wasn't being a sheriff and he's a really

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great guy he's very talkative he's a

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believer you know he calls himself a

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reformed skeptic I don't know if he was

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never really that skeptical

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he's certainly willing to believe

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certainly more than I was at the time I

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like the fact that his wife is not a

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believer

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you know she's skeptical of all of it

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and he's not just trying to convince the

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world that UFOs are real but he's trying

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to convince his wife as well and he's a

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real outdoors

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kind of intense individual who's not

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fearful of anything and he's very good

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at talking to the sort of ranchers the

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people who who don't really like talking

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to outsiders and people who who are off

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you know whose cattle the mutilated and

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things like that he approaches

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everything the way son of a cop would

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approach it and he's looking for

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evidence and he's very detail-oriented

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and then very smart

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my impression it was very good you know

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he's obsessed but he's not crazy so it's

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kind of that line between going too far

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with something and and you know just

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trying to find the truth and so I was

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very impressed by him yeah that's a

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really good point that that line is so

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distinct when it comes to you obsession

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and you know interest in curiosity

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especially when you trip on pretty

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00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:36,930
interesting things like Chuck has which

272
00:10:43,009 --> 00:10:39,990
will definitely get into you did mention

273
00:10:45,889 --> 00:10:43,019
earlier about Roswell sort of the

274
00:10:48,530 --> 00:10:45,899
inception of the modern UFO era that in

275
00:10:51,470 --> 00:10:48,540
the Foo Fighters phenomenon this case

276
00:10:53,389 --> 00:10:51,480
Roswell it refuses to die then both for

277
00:10:55,490 --> 00:10:53,399
us in the UFO community and I'm sure for

278
00:10:57,079 --> 00:10:55,500
those outside of it it's the one you

279
00:10:59,090 --> 00:10:57,089
always hear about in the one that never

280
00:11:01,179 --> 00:10:59,100
goes away what are your what are your

281
00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:01,189
personal beliefs about what happened in

282
00:11:07,009 --> 00:11:04,350
1947 in Roswell Mexico well I mean I

283
00:11:08,449 --> 00:11:07,019
definitely you know I went into it not

284
00:11:10,009 --> 00:11:08,459
knowing anything about Roswell my

285
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:10,019
impressions of Roswell with a kid she

286
00:11:13,790 --> 00:11:11,850
you know dressed up as an alien and go

287
00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:13,800
to the ball and you know he's here in a

288
00:11:17,299 --> 00:11:15,420
flying saucer restaurant that kind of

289
00:11:20,030 --> 00:11:17,309
thing but the real facts of Roswell I

290
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:20,040
think are very compelling you know you

291
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:22,410
have you know an Air Force Base which is

292
00:11:27,019 --> 00:11:25,050
one of our first nuclear bases how's the

293
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:27,029
planes that went to Japan to bomb Japan

294
00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:29,730
and they track something going through a

295
00:11:34,309 --> 00:11:31,649
storm in the middle of the night

296
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,319
whatever that was crashes on a field

297
00:11:38,179 --> 00:11:36,959
leaving 300 yards of metallic debris

298
00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:38,189
that's supposedly covered in

299
00:11:42,769 --> 00:11:40,500
hieroglyphics the Air Force sends over

300
00:11:44,210 --> 00:11:42,779
personnel who who then put out a press

301
00:11:46,819 --> 00:11:44,220
release saying we have in our possession

302
00:11:48,860 --> 00:11:46,829
a flying saucer and they rescind their

303
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:48,870
own press release and then they fake a

304
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:53,040
photograph with a weather balloon and

305
00:11:58,490 --> 00:11:54,930
then then they move all the debris to

306
00:12:01,490 --> 00:11:58,500
area 51 it's a it's an amazing story one

307
00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:01,500
that you know hasn't fully ever been

308
00:12:06,590 --> 00:12:04,560
clarified there are still document this

309
00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:06,600
day talking about the unidentified

310
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:10,140
debris the Air Force has this debris and

311
00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:13,170
and so it's a real mystery you know and

312
00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:15,510
there's there's never been sort of a

313
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:17,880
resolution to it the idea that it's a

314
00:12:22,370 --> 00:12:20,130
weather balloon is a joke there's no way

315
00:12:23,630 --> 00:12:22,380
at the weather balloon though the one

316
00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:23,640
theory that you know the other theory

317
00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:26,220
about a flying saucer sent by the

318
00:12:31,070 --> 00:12:28,470
Russians which is an intriguing theory

319
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:31,080
doesn't explain why it's got to be kept

320
00:12:37,370 --> 00:12:34,320
a secret why the files can't come out

321
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:37,380
why the debris can't come forward you

322
00:12:40,610 --> 00:12:39,120
know it there's no reason why the debris

323
00:12:43,460 --> 00:12:40,620
wouldn't still be in existence there's

324
00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:43,470
no reason to get rid of it so it's

325
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:45,510
obviously still there even if it was a

326
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:47,250
weather balloon you would think they

327
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:50,850
would just bring it out and so I feel

328
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,010
it's a very compelling thing and it's

329
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:55,200
hard to sort of turn away from I think

330
00:13:01,700 --> 00:12:58,800
it is to me it's the one event that I

331
00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:01,710
think really speaks to the idea that

332
00:13:05,150 --> 00:13:03,270
something came here from somewhere else

333
00:13:06,950 --> 00:13:05,160
and then you tie it into the food

334
00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:06,960
fighter phenomenon you know the food

335
00:13:11,860 --> 00:13:09,180
fighter phenomena in the 1940s during

336
00:13:15,020 --> 00:13:11,870
World War two American and UK and

337
00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:15,030
Japanese pilots as well we're seeing

338
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:16,680
these fireballs that were flying

339
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:18,720
alongside the plane when you turn

340
00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:20,250
towards them they would turn away or

341
00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:22,100
they disappear and then they come back

342
00:13:25,610 --> 00:13:24,150
though it was covered in the New York

343
00:13:27,829 --> 00:13:25,620
Times cover of The New York Times an

344
00:13:28,940 --> 00:13:27,839
article saying what are these food

345
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:28,950
fighters are they some weird German

346
00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:31,410
weapon and then we captured the German

347
00:13:35,420 --> 00:13:33,420
scientists after World War two and we

348
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:35,430
asked them what these were and they said

349
00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:36,510
they didn't know what they were either

350
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:38,880
and Roswell comes right on the heels of

351
00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:41,490
that so it really speaks to the idea

352
00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:43,880
that something was going on in the 40s

353
00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:46,380
now I don't know since then obviously

354
00:13:50,090 --> 00:13:47,880
there's been tons and tons of sighting

355
00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:50,100
there's been many more fireballs seeing

356
00:13:54,079 --> 00:13:51,510
there's been thousands of sort of

357
00:13:56,570 --> 00:13:54,089
witness account but I feel like those

358
00:14:01,760 --> 00:13:56,580
you know the Foo Fighter to Roswell is

359
00:14:03,740 --> 00:14:01,770
to me the most definitive case where you

360
00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:03,750
really have a fair amount of evidence

361
00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:05,670
you have something that the government

362
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:07,830
certainly has and for some reason

363
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:10,380
covered up and and it it to me is the

364
00:14:14,690 --> 00:14:12,450
most compelling evidence that we've been

365
00:14:15,140 --> 00:14:14,700
visited that's a great point yeah I

366
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:15,150
leave

367
00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:17,130
forty's were ripe with this it you had

368
00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:19,950
almost a UFO hysteria I mean even the

369
00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:21,750
Kenneth Arnold incident which you bring

370
00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:24,060
up briefly as well I mean this this is

371
00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:26,430
all happening at the same time and you

372
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,620
have to wonder right it all ties

373
00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:30,480
together and it's all you know

374
00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:31,980
documented and we're talking about the

375
00:14:35,330 --> 00:14:33,480
Air Force talking about a first nuclear

376
00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:35,340
base we're talking about a lot of sort

377
00:14:39,740 --> 00:14:36,990
of things that come together that make

378
00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:39,750
you wonder if this was this moment you

379
00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:42,510
know and and what it could be we don't

380
00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:44,760
really know but for some reason the Air

381
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:46,860
Force decided to cover it up and this

382
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:48,210
was also a moment in time when the Air

383
00:14:51,740 --> 00:14:49,650
Force was very good at covering things

384
00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:51,750
up this is what the government did you

385
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:53,220
know this was a time period of the

386
00:14:59,120 --> 00:14:55,610
Manhattan Project which was the largest

387
00:15:00,440 --> 00:14:59,130
cover-up in history hundred thousand

388
00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:00,450
people were involved in making the

389
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,820
atomic bomb of which only 15 knew what

390
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:04,800
they were actually doing and you know

391
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:07,890
whole towns were built in secret secret

392
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:09,870
cities you know were put together there

393
00:15:14,510 --> 00:15:11,910
was the office of censorship which

394
00:15:16,610 --> 00:15:14,520
actually eliminated the words nuclear in

395
00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:16,620
a comment from the English language we

396
00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:17,910
could take it out of newspapers and

397
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:19,500
magazines they even took it out of Buck

398
00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:22,170
Rogers comic books so there was a real

399
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:24,660
sort of censorship in place at the time

400
00:15:29,770 --> 00:15:26,670
there was an ability to cover things up

401
00:15:32,030 --> 00:15:29,780
in place in the late 40s and early 50s

402
00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:32,040
the likes of which we don't have today

403
00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:34,860
so something could be kept secret then

404
00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:36,600
that would be harder to keep secret

405
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:39,060
today so I don't know I mean it really

406
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:40,650
does speak to the idea that something

407
00:15:44,630 --> 00:15:42,930
happened and for whatever reason got

408
00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:44,640
caught up in this veil of secrecy and

409
00:15:48,830 --> 00:15:47,340
has remained there yeah it's sort of a

410
00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:48,840
snowball effect from there once you

411
00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:51,270
start to lie from the beginning like

412
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:53,640
wait how do you unravel that they're not

413
00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:55,110
going to come forward and admit they've

414
00:16:00,110 --> 00:15:57,420
been lying for 50 what almost 60 years

415
00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:00,120
right so it's a phase you know this

416
00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:02,760
hidden thing yeah dug your own hole Air

417
00:16:06,890 --> 00:16:05,100
Force that's for sure so then what's

418
00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:06,900
that let's give it a little back to the

419
00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:09,030
the core of the book the cattle

420
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:11,430
mutilation phenomenon was something I

421
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:13,050
always veered away from in my own

422
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:15,810
personal UFO research because a like you

423
00:16:20,090 --> 00:16:17,610
mentioned I'm from the East Coast I live

424
00:16:22,070 --> 00:16:20,100
in New York City and it it seems so

425
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:22,080
infrequent here on the East Coast ever

426
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:24,330
hear about cattle mutilations you know

427
00:16:28,820 --> 00:16:27,210
maybe back in the 80s I believe it was

428
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,830
like Nightline or Dateline

429
00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:30,720
didn't like one small special on it but

430
00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:33,660
in your research woodchuck and just in

431
00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:35,640
general this phenomenon is much more

432
00:16:39,620 --> 00:16:37,470
prevalent than I thought could you could

433
00:16:41,750 --> 00:16:39,630
you tell us a little bit about what the

434
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:41,760
cattle mutilation phenomenon is and why

435
00:16:45,949 --> 00:16:43,680
you decided to focus on that in terms of

436
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:45,959
Chuck's own investigations sure well you

437
00:16:51,139 --> 00:16:48,690
know since basically the 60s but even

438
00:16:53,389 --> 00:16:51,149
earlier more than ten thousand cows and

439
00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:53,399
horses have been found lying on their

440
00:16:58,850 --> 00:16:57,060
left side usually missing organs the

441
00:17:01,100 --> 00:16:58,860
cuts are all circular and they look

442
00:17:02,810 --> 00:17:01,110
surgical and the animals are completely

443
00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:02,820
drained of blood you know there's no

444
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,380
blood at the scene there's no blood in

445
00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:06,959
the bodies there's no witnesses no

446
00:17:11,150 --> 00:17:09,510
footprints no fingerprints no one's ever

447
00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:11,160
been arrested and no one's ever been

448
00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:14,790
caught doing it in the 70s it got so bad

449
00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:16,740
that three state governors got together

450
00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:18,839
and petitioned the Attorney General the

451
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:21,030
United States demanding an investigation

452
00:17:27,199 --> 00:17:24,240
and the FBI investigated used over a

453
00:17:28,820 --> 00:17:27,209
hundred agent and came to no conclusions

454
00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:28,830
they found nothing no one's ever been

455
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:31,470
arrested so it's this very wide reaching

456
00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:33,929
phenomenon in multiple states spanning

457
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:37,320
60 years that no one can figure out and

458
00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:39,450
you know whether it's related to some

459
00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:43,740
weird bio testing or some some cults you

460
00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:45,300
know with one theory or a biker gang

461
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:48,030
with another theory it's so bad and the

462
00:17:52,610 --> 00:17:49,679
idea of these animals reigned of blood

463
00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:52,620
it's just very creepy you know Chuck

464
00:17:57,860 --> 00:17:54,900
believes it's connected to UFOs there's

465
00:18:00,110 --> 00:17:57,870
often sighting in the same area the

466
00:18:01,850 --> 00:18:00,120
ranchers who see this happening always

467
00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:01,860
speak about things in the sky and then

468
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:03,900
they think that there's a UFO component

469
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:06,540
it's a weird one and no one can figure

470
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:09,450
it out and you know it's something that

471
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:10,890
hasn't really been covered very well

472
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,210
every now and then you'll see an article

473
00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:14,160
here or there but you won't see any

474
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:16,140
major mainstream you know journalists

475
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:18,990
looking into it and it it's just one of

476
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,690
those things and I was captivated by it

477
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:23,280
just because it's so wide reaching you

478
00:18:27,169 --> 00:18:25,050
talk to these ranchers and they're

479
00:18:29,450 --> 00:18:27,179
traumatized you know they're there

480
00:18:31,940 --> 00:18:29,460
animals are mutilated in a very horrible

481
00:18:33,980 --> 00:18:31,950
fashion right and and today I'm it's

482
00:18:36,290 --> 00:18:33,990
it's a very big deal obviously because

483
00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:36,300
they live and die by these animals it's

484
00:18:40,810 --> 00:18:38,040
part of you know their their livelihood

485
00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:40,820
so it's really kind of a stunning thing

486
00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:42,780
and nobody really knows what's

487
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:45,150
all of it yeah I mean that is such a

488
00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:47,520
good point like this isn't just you know

489
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:51,720
we sort of the the carnivores in the

490
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:54,450
world um see cows as you know nothing

491
00:18:59,690 --> 00:18:57,530
but livestock is you know a way of

492
00:19:01,610 --> 00:18:59,700
consumption but the this is the

493
00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:01,620
livelihood of these people and not only

494
00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:03,900
that they have such a connection with

495
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:06,150
the animals as well that of course it's

496
00:19:09,470 --> 00:19:07,530
going to be traumatizing and when you're

497
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:09,480
losing hundreds of thousands of dollars

498
00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:12,990
of your you know quote-unquote product I

499
00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:15,270
can only imagine it's this could put

500
00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:16,800
people out of business and the fact that

501
00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:18,750
it's a complete mystery that of course

502
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:21,150
that needs to be investigated upon and

503
00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:23,730
someone like Chuck who is a deputy

504
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:26,070
sheriff is the one to sort of do that

505
00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:28,650
when no one else will look into it or

506
00:19:35,030 --> 00:19:32,760
try to find answers in tracking the

507
00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:35,040
investigations that Chuck did did you um

508
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:37,460
what what did he find most challenging

509
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:39,780
when you were following him on these

510
00:19:45,170 --> 00:19:42,510
sort of journeys then what what what

511
00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:45,180
challenge do you the most in what truck

512
00:19:48,770 --> 00:19:47,580
was doing well yes interesting there's a

513
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:48,780
couple things going on first of all when

514
00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:50,370
you when you try to look into the from

515
00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:52,260
an outside perspective one of the

516
00:19:55,850 --> 00:19:54,060
problems is people who are too willing

517
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:55,860
to believe you know there's a mistake of

518
00:19:59,360 --> 00:19:57,120
not believing enough but there's a

519
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:59,370
mistake of believing too much so it's

520
00:20:03,050 --> 00:20:01,200
all about the credibility factor I mean

521
00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:03,060
which of these events which of these

522
00:20:06,290 --> 00:20:04,860
things that Chuck looks at can you look

523
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:06,300
at and say okay this is a real mystery

524
00:20:09,530 --> 00:20:07,950
or which do you look at and say okay

525
00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:09,540
they're just looking for something you

526
00:20:12,380 --> 00:20:10,950
know because you're searching for

527
00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:12,390
patterns all the time that's what the

528
00:20:16,430 --> 00:20:14,190
human brain does and if you're not

529
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:16,440
careful you're going to see things in

530
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:17,520
the middle of the night that aren't

531
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:18,090
really there

532
00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:20,310
and Chuck does that too and it's

533
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:21,960
interesting you know certain things he

534
00:20:25,550 --> 00:20:23,490
eventually figures out okay this was

535
00:20:27,710 --> 00:20:25,560
just fireworks you know or this is just

536
00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:27,720
that and then I think that that's an

537
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:30,420
important part of it but difficulty you

538
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:31,710
know ranchers don't like to talk to

539
00:20:34,580 --> 00:20:32,910
people on the outside they're

540
00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:34,590
embarrassed by what they saw they're

541
00:20:39,380 --> 00:20:37,140
afraid of being looked at as crazy so

542
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,390
it's hard to sort of get you know into

543
00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:41,760
some of these investigations and then

544
00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:43,140
there's the idea that none of this is

545
00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:46,380
taken seriously no you know real major

546
00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:48,120
scientists can look into a cattle

547
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:49,980
mutilation for instance without being

548
00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:52,290
ridiculed people lose their jobs just

549
00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:55,500
like Chuck did it's a it's tricky for

550
00:20:59,239 --> 00:20:56,429
people to really get in

551
00:21:02,720 --> 00:20:59,249
to this and so you know you have to you

552
00:21:03,769 --> 00:21:02,730
have to look at it and know that most of

553
00:21:05,659 --> 00:21:03,779
people who are looking at it are people

554
00:21:07,730 --> 00:21:05,669
who are already willing to risk their

555
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:07,740
careers or coming from sort of a

556
00:21:12,259 --> 00:21:10,080
different place so it's tricky you know

557
00:21:13,869 --> 00:21:12,269
coming at it and trying to figure out

558
00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:13,879
what's credible and what's not credible

559
00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:16,769
but but yeah I mean it's fascinating

560
00:21:21,919 --> 00:21:19,289
it's very untouched you know the whole

561
00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:21,929
thing is just a wide-open thing right

562
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:24,600
now so um so I found it fascinating yeah

563
00:21:29,539 --> 00:21:26,940
yeah absolutely I mean you could even

564
00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:29,549
mirror that to the UFO phenomenon we we

565
00:21:34,249 --> 00:21:31,980
strive so much to be taken seriously by

566
00:21:37,369 --> 00:21:34,259
the scientific community but in a way

567
00:21:39,649 --> 00:21:37,379
you can't blame them for not not I mean

568
00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:39,659
what did we have the scientific method

569
00:21:44,239 --> 00:21:41,340
you need repeatability and when these

570
00:21:46,879 --> 00:21:44,249
quote-unquote UFOs are blinking in and

571
00:21:49,609 --> 00:21:46,889
out there's no way to track that to

572
00:21:53,659 --> 00:21:49,619
analyze that so it's frustrating when

573
00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:53,669
you know the the UFO researchers want

574
00:21:58,220 --> 00:21:55,820
them to look into this but they're

575
00:22:00,859 --> 00:21:58,230
they're being honest they really can't

576
00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:00,869
there are some groups however who do and

577
00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:02,580
we will definitely get into that the

578
00:22:07,129 --> 00:22:04,350
most in one of the most interesting

579
00:22:08,869 --> 00:22:07,139
things about the book then is we get to

580
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:08,879
the point of view of different people

581
00:22:13,129 --> 00:22:10,590
throughout the book which I think you do

582
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:13,139
very very well mostly Chuck but also a

583
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:15,360
sister Tammy and one of the most

584
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:18,690
interesting was that of a a billionaire

585
00:22:23,149 --> 00:22:20,850
with an interest in UFOs could you

586
00:22:25,489 --> 00:22:23,159
that's a little about of Robert Bigelow

587
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:25,499
and what attracted you to including him

588
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:27,570
in your name yeah so Robert Bigelow is a

589
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:29,610
really interesting individual you know

590
00:22:33,739 --> 00:22:31,440
he's a name that that people in the UFO

591
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:33,749
community know well Bigelow is a

592
00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:35,730
reclusive billionaire he made his money

593
00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:37,740
in real estate you know founded budget

594
00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:39,659
Suites of America and grew his fortune

595
00:22:43,549 --> 00:22:41,580
from there he's always had a lifelong

596
00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:43,559
interest in UFOs you know he's a

597
00:22:49,580 --> 00:22:46,950
believer um in his younger days he set

598
00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:49,590
out to use his money to attempt to put

599
00:22:54,739 --> 00:22:51,840
together scientists to prove or disprove

600
00:22:55,789 --> 00:22:54,749
the existence of UFOs he built something

601
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:55,799
called the National Institute of

602
00:22:59,629 --> 00:22:57,570
Discovery Science which was housed in

603
00:23:02,060 --> 00:22:59,639
Las Vegas which he put together some

604
00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:02,070
real chemists and biologists and X FBI

605
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:04,110
agents and their goal was to really

606
00:23:08,570 --> 00:23:06,570
track down and understand what was going

607
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:08,580
in the world of you apology then it gets

608
00:23:11,770 --> 00:23:10,020
a little murkier

609
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:11,780
starts to have a connection with MUFON

610
00:23:16,790 --> 00:23:13,950
which is the nationwide kind of

611
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,800
grassroots UFO investigation movement

612
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:18,960
funded their star teams for a while

613
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:20,880
until he stopped and then he kind of

614
00:23:25,070 --> 00:23:22,980
made a career change and he launched a

615
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:25,080
Bigelow Aerospace which is a major

616
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:27,120
aerospace company they make pieces

617
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:28,910
through the International Space Station

618
00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:32,370
they had a piece on the on the last

619
00:23:36,290 --> 00:23:34,200
SpaceX launch not the one that blew up

620
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:36,300
with the one before that they make the

621
00:23:41,150 --> 00:23:39,210
app which is the inflatable room

622
00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:41,160
but attached to the space station

623
00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:44,220
but still he conduct UFO investigation

624
00:23:49,010 --> 00:23:46,560
it turns out that the FAA you know the

625
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:49,020
American organization that controls all

626
00:23:54,740 --> 00:23:51,210
of our civilian pilots in their manual

627
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:54,750
if a pilot sees something they don't

628
00:23:58,370 --> 00:23:56,610
report it to the FAA they don't report

629
00:24:00,560 --> 00:23:58,380
to the US government they report it to

630
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:00,570
Bigelow Bigelow sends out his own team

631
00:24:04,550 --> 00:24:02,370
to investigate and all of that

632
00:24:06,650 --> 00:24:04,560
information is kept private though has

633
00:24:08,330 --> 00:24:06,660
all these private files on UFO studies

634
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:08,340
you know there are conspiracy theorists

635
00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:10,050
who believe that you know he's found

636
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:11,870
something that he's reverse engineering

637
00:24:17,150 --> 00:24:15,210
stuff that's what Chuck believes but

638
00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:17,160
it's very mysterious you know it's a

639
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:19,590
private billionaire who is essentially

640
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:21,900
at the forefront of UFO investigations

641
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:24,630
he's taken over for the government in

642
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:27,600
terms of investigating and and he's you

643
00:24:33,290 --> 00:24:30,320
know the center of the whole sort of uh

644
00:24:35,090 --> 00:24:33,300
you know he's well-funded he knows what

645
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:35,100
he's doing he has scientists on staff

646
00:24:40,010 --> 00:24:38,640
he runs labs that will analyze stuff and

647
00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:40,020
nobody knows what he's doing with all of

648
00:24:45,410 --> 00:24:43,140
this information but he has it under his

649
00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:45,420
own control so he's a fascinating guy

650
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:47,910
it's an incredible company and what

651
00:24:51,740 --> 00:24:49,770
they're up to nobody really knows right

652
00:24:54,050 --> 00:24:51,750
you know and you even touch briefly on

653
00:24:56,210 --> 00:24:54,060
his is purchasing of the skinwalker

654
00:24:57,740 --> 00:24:56,220
ranch and you don't very mysterious

655
00:25:00,140 --> 00:24:57,750
place you know we've talked about it

656
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:00,150
briefly on our show but so much just

657
00:25:06,290 --> 00:25:02,400
weird stuff going on there everything

658
00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:06,300
from UFOs to cryptids to just everything

659
00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:08,280
you could possibly think of so very

660
00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:09,720
interesting that he would purchase this

661
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:11,820
place I know it was sold at one point

662
00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:14,220
and only a few days ago it came forward

663
00:25:18,590 --> 00:25:16,590
that he purchased it again so you gotta

664
00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:18,600
wonder what is this guy doing what's he

665
00:25:23,210 --> 00:25:21,240
trying to either contain or

666
00:25:25,460 --> 00:25:23,220
decade and you mentioned even in the

667
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:25,470
book you know Chuck saw the front of

668
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:27,930
Bigelow's building where you have a half

669
00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:31,500
gray alien face on it like why you know

670
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:34,020
and what is that about I mean you're not

671
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,210
making it hidden that he's interested in

672
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:38,400
this topic right that he has been for a

673
00:25:42,770 --> 00:25:40,710
very long time it's just a question of

674
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:42,780
what what is his interest what is he

675
00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:45,090
doing with this information and yes can

676
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:46,740
walk a ranch is really fascinating you

677
00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:48,690
know he owns it and he closed it down

678
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:50,550
and put a bunch of scientists within it

679
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:52,710
who have been studying it for a long

680
00:25:57,950 --> 00:25:55,530
time and are uncovering really

681
00:25:59,930 --> 00:25:57,960
interesting things but yeah nobody

682
00:26:02,510 --> 00:25:59,940
really knows what he's up to what he's

683
00:26:04,370 --> 00:26:02,520
trying to do and and where he's going

684
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:04,380
with all of it in terms of what Bigelow

685
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:05,910
might be doing you mentioned that he has

686
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:08,490
scientists on staff ones that analyze

687
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:09,930
things brought to them one of the most

688
00:26:14,090 --> 00:26:11,850
fascinating stories in the book is when

689
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:14,100
Chuck and Bigelow's world sort of

690
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:16,410
collide Chuck did a dig out at Roswell

691
00:26:21,470 --> 00:26:19,530
he found something and could you tell us

692
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:21,480
a little bit more about this episode Ben

693
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:24,210
about what he found and what ended up

694
00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:26,490
happening to the fragment that he

695
00:26:33,650 --> 00:26:29,700
discovered sure so Chuck did a

696
00:26:35,630 --> 00:26:33,660
archeological dig at at Roswell it was

697
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:35,640
part of a sci-fi channel shoot but the

698
00:26:40,370 --> 00:26:38,010
sci-fi channel was kind of doing a fake

699
00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:40,380
dig you know they have dig down so deep

700
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:42,870
that they were digging in dinosaur era

701
00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:45,450
rather than in the 1940s and Chuck

702
00:26:49,550 --> 00:26:47,460
managed to convince the archaeologists

703
00:26:49,820 --> 00:26:49,560
to charge to let him dig at the proper

704
00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:49,830
place

705
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:52,140
he had the coordinates gotten from the

706
00:26:57,770 --> 00:26:54,480
mortuary other one who had provided the

707
00:27:00,590 --> 00:26:57,780
coffin supposedly the Air Force back in

708
00:27:01,910 --> 00:27:00,600
1947 and when Chuck did his dig with his

709
00:27:04,610 --> 00:27:01,920
sister he found a little piece of

710
00:27:06,530 --> 00:27:04,620
metallic material that matched the

711
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:06,540
description from the debris at the time

712
00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:08,130
and then Chuck essentially put out a

713
00:27:12,980 --> 00:27:09,990
press release and said is there anybody

714
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:12,990
out there who wants to help me you know

715
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:15,690
analyze this piece of material and he

716
00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:17,610
was contacted by Bigelow's people a

717
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:19,500
Bigelow scientist contacted and said

718
00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:21,690
we'll take a look at it so we sent this

719
00:27:27,380 --> 00:27:23,430
piece of material over to Bigelow's lab

720
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:27,390
and they ran a you know a study on it

721
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:29,730
and they came back to chuck saying you

722
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:31,170
know it doesn't match anything in our

723
00:27:34,970 --> 00:27:33,810
known database of materials that's not

724
00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:34,980
to say it's an alien

725
00:27:40,789 --> 00:27:37,950
Bing but we don't know what it is and it

726
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:40,799
needs more research and then they cut

727
00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:43,290
off all contact and and that was the

728
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:44,580
moment that sort of sent Chuck over the

729
00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:47,490
edge a little bit he he became you know

730
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:48,990
a little bit obsessed and wanting to

731
00:27:52,159 --> 00:27:50,940
know why they wouldn't respond to him

732
00:27:55,970 --> 00:27:52,169
what they were doing with his stuff

733
00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:55,980
where it all went from there but uh but

734
00:28:01,340 --> 00:27:59,610
yeah it was a sort of just how Bigelow's

735
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:01,350
people work Vanna they will look into

736
00:28:06,530 --> 00:28:03,450
something and then kind of just vanish

737
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:06,540
yeah and and it's just kind of a wild

738
00:28:12,020 --> 00:28:08,880
sort of scenario of what is going on

739
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:12,030
very wild I mean in terms of that Ben

740
00:28:16,909 --> 00:28:14,490
did you did you personally experience

741
00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:16,919
anything you know strange or odd when

742
00:28:20,990 --> 00:28:18,390
you were following chuck at his journey

743
00:28:22,430 --> 00:28:21,000
any x-files to bring for you no not

744
00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:22,440
personally you know I've never seen a

745
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:25,320
UFO I've never had an experience that

746
00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:29,370
like Chuck has fairly often um for me

747
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:30,840
it's just not something that I've ever

748
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:32,910
kind of run into you know I write a lot

749
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:34,980
of very controversial crazy books my

750
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:37,260
last book was about Russian oligarchs so

751
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:40,320
I not know if somebody was following me

752
00:28:42,860 --> 00:28:41,580
I would have to look through a list of

753
00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:42,870
the people who might be following me

754
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:45,000
right but you know the UFOs would only

755
00:28:50,570 --> 00:28:48,570
be one on a list so it's not something I

756
00:28:53,780 --> 00:28:50,580
really noticed I really don't have any

757
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:53,790
idea but I do know that Chuck certainly

758
00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:55,710
feels like he's been followed that

759
00:29:00,980 --> 00:28:56,910
people interested in what he's been

760
00:29:05,150 --> 00:29:00,990
doing and and he's fairly nervous about

761
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:05,160
things but yeah it's uh it's pretty wild

762
00:29:08,539 --> 00:29:06,960
yeah there's definitely a lot going on

763
00:29:10,789 --> 00:29:08,549
in terms of cover-ups in terms of

764
00:29:13,730 --> 00:29:10,799
government interest in this and all of

765
00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:13,740
that it's pretty clear that there have

766
00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:15,900
been multiple cover-ups in time but I

767
00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:17,640
myself haven't really run into anything

768
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:20,070
crazy right that was actually going to

769
00:29:23,539 --> 00:29:21,360
be my next question like what do you

770
00:29:26,539 --> 00:29:23,549
make of the whole paranoia aspect of

771
00:29:28,340 --> 00:29:26,549
maybe the UFO community you know in

772
00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:28,350
terms of the book you know Chuck becomes

773
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:30,870
a little paranoid his sister has a very

774
00:29:35,030 --> 00:29:32,880
interesting experience which will we'll

775
00:29:36,380 --> 00:29:35,040
leave for the readers but um yeah what

776
00:29:39,049 --> 00:29:36,390
what do you make of the whole idea of

777
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:39,059
paranoia in terms of mixing it in with

778
00:29:44,419 --> 00:29:41,850
this whole UFO thing our UFO researchers

779
00:29:46,370 --> 00:29:44,429
being monitored by the government is

780
00:29:48,289 --> 00:29:46,380
this just you know wishful thinking on

781
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:48,299
their part what do you make of that

782
00:29:49,890 --> 00:29:48,610
whole

783
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:49,900
I mean it's a great question you know

784
00:29:52,890 --> 00:29:51,250
there's no question that there have been

785
00:29:55,410 --> 00:29:52,900
cover-ups and there's no question that

786
00:29:58,770 --> 00:29:55,420
Roswell was the event of a major

787
00:30:00,480 --> 00:29:58,780
cover-up yeah but yeah I think that

788
00:30:02,430 --> 00:30:00,490
listen there are people who are just

789
00:30:04,530 --> 00:30:02,440
overly paranoid and there are people who

790
00:30:06,510 --> 00:30:04,540
have raised interest certainly if you

791
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:06,520
try and walk into area 51 you're going

792
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:08,590
to get arrested and and you're going to

793
00:30:13,950 --> 00:30:11,770
get looked into and and I do think that

794
00:30:16,410 --> 00:30:13,960
certainly in the 50s with the world

795
00:30:17,970 --> 00:30:16,420
being what it was people were followed

796
00:30:19,919 --> 00:30:17,980
and people were there were tabs on

797
00:30:22,919 --> 00:30:19,929
people you know I don't think that

798
00:30:24,510 --> 00:30:22,929
there's any nefarious organization that

799
00:30:27,210 --> 00:30:24,520
does look at this guys getting too close

800
00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:27,220
to the UFO true I think that the whole

801
00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:31,750
idea of UFOs is so easily mocked that

802
00:30:36,330 --> 00:30:34,510
there's no need for anyone to to do

803
00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:36,340
anything nefarious because you can just

804
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:37,929
make fun of people I mean no one's going

805
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:39,730
to take you seriously even if you found

806
00:30:43,950 --> 00:30:41,049
you that I have an alien in my basement

807
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:43,960
no one's going to take you seriously and

808
00:30:49,740 --> 00:30:47,110
the government knows this whole well I

809
00:30:51,740 --> 00:30:49,750
do think things are kept hidden not

810
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:51,750
necessarily for bad reasons you know

811
00:30:55,980 --> 00:30:54,640
conspiracies aren't always bad sometimes

812
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:55,990
people keep secrets for very good

813
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,490
reasons and there might be a very good

814
00:31:00,600 --> 00:30:59,679
reason to keep this stuff secret I think

815
00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:00,610
it's interesting you know the Hillary

816
00:31:03,870 --> 00:31:02,559
Clinton thing where she recently I was

817
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:03,880
on Jimmy Kimmel and she said one of her

818
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:06,010
goals in office would be to to get these

819
00:31:12,030 --> 00:31:10,000
vials opened up and you know she was

820
00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:12,040
also asked and at an earlier conference

821
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:13,240
if she believed that we've been visited

822
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:14,890
and she said she wouldn't be surprised

823
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:16,870
and this is a woman who has been closer

824
00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:18,610
than any of us have been to that

825
00:31:22,860 --> 00:31:20,710
information you know a president was a

826
00:31:26,010 --> 00:31:22,870
president tried to get these files as

827
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:26,020
well she was Secretary of State I mean

828
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:28,090
these people know way more than we know

829
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:29,919
and if she's willing to believe I think

830
00:31:34,260 --> 00:31:32,410
anyone should be willing to believe but

831
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:34,270
you know it's interesting I do think

832
00:31:37,049 --> 00:31:35,200
there are cover-ups

833
00:31:39,780 --> 00:31:37,059
I don't think there's this nefarious you

834
00:31:40,919 --> 00:31:39,790
know murderous government out to get

835
00:31:44,010 --> 00:31:40,929
people because they're talking about

836
00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:44,020
UFOs I don't think that's necessary but

837
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:46,660
it does feed into people's paranoia but

838
00:31:50,909 --> 00:31:48,460
we're all being watched all the time I

839
00:31:53,070 --> 00:31:50,919
think you know the Snowden stuff the NSA

840
00:31:55,230 --> 00:31:53,080
stuff it's very clear that they've been

841
00:31:56,039 --> 00:31:55,240
gathering information on everybody for

842
00:31:57,690 --> 00:31:56,049
decades

843
00:31:59,940 --> 00:31:57,700
that's just what the government does

844
00:32:01,740 --> 00:31:59,950
that's what the NSA is there for for

845
00:32:02,490 --> 00:32:01,750
good reasons for the most part they want

846
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:02,500
to do it to try and

847
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:05,110
people safe weather UFO knowledge comes

848
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:07,210
up on that list or not I couldn't tell

849
00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:07,630
you

850
00:32:12,150 --> 00:32:10,150
I think area 51 knowledge certainly does

851
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:12,160
if you're looking into military bases

852
00:32:17,610 --> 00:32:15,460
I'm sure someone is looking at you you

853
00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:17,620
know and and and things like that often

854
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:20,230
a lot of these things are black ops

855
00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:21,850
military projects you know one of the

856
00:32:26,850 --> 00:32:23,580
things that Bigelow uncovered in the 80s

857
00:32:29,070 --> 00:32:26,860
the majority of the 90s I guess the

858
00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:29,080
majority of sightings at the time were

859
00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:31,720
these giant black triangles right they

860
00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:33,790
were called big black deltas Bigelow

861
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:35,470
scientists came to the conclusion that

862
00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:38,530
those were actually this secret military

863
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:41,380
Air Force project to build hyperkinetic

864
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:44,710
blimps these giant football-field-sized

865
00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:47,170
glimpse that could fly at immense speeds

866
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:50,440
so this was a secret Air Force project

867
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:52,810
I'm sure that if you were trying to get

868
00:32:56,610 --> 00:32:54,850
to the bottom of that project they were

869
00:32:58,050 --> 00:32:56,620
keeping tabs on you because you know

870
00:32:59,940 --> 00:32:58,060
they don't want that secret to get out

871
00:33:01,710 --> 00:32:59,950
and I think that's true for a lot of

872
00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:01,720
these things you know you're seeing the

873
00:33:06,030 --> 00:33:04,080
testing of some sort of stealth aircraft

874
00:33:08,730 --> 00:33:06,040
and the government's going to keep tabs

875
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,740
on that so yeah I don't think it's

876
00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:10,480
unrealistic to believe that you might be

877
00:33:15,390 --> 00:33:11,950
being followed if you're looking deeply

878
00:33:17,310 --> 00:33:15,400
into Air Force projects but if you're

879
00:33:19,050 --> 00:33:17,320
you know saying hey I believe there's an

880
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:19,060
alien there I think the government would

881
00:33:23,490 --> 00:33:21,010
be less likely to give you problems

882
00:33:25,620 --> 00:33:23,500
because you know they're not they know

883
00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:25,630
you're not going to be believed they

884
00:33:29,370 --> 00:33:28,030
know no one's going to buy it so they

885
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:29,380
don't have to worry about you and

886
00:33:33,810 --> 00:33:31,210
there's a great scene in the story where

887
00:33:35,370 --> 00:33:33,820
Chuck Woods followed at area 51 these

888
00:33:37,770 --> 00:33:35,380
two military personnel followed him up

889
00:33:40,290 --> 00:33:37,780
there and when he confronted them they

890
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:40,300
basically said you're just a UFO nut and

891
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:43,510
so then that's not really a threat and

892
00:33:48,570 --> 00:33:45,970
and so that's intriguing yeah but I do

893
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:48,580
I don't discount the idea that you know

894
00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:49,720
they're following people and looking

895
00:33:55,050 --> 00:33:51,550
into it I just think it's not business

896
00:33:56,940 --> 00:33:55,060
Arius you know scary thing I think you

897
00:33:59,490 --> 00:33:56,950
just have to expect that people listen

898
00:34:01,890 --> 00:33:59,500
to you yeah yeah yeah I mean it seems

899
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:01,900
like some of these radical believers are

900
00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:03,730
sort of their own worst enemies but you

901
00:34:08,190 --> 00:34:05,800
like you just said they can also be used

902
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:08,200
as a great defense in Chuck's case where

903
00:34:14,399 --> 00:34:11,530
he was considered the the pinnacle UFO

904
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:14,409
nut and got him off scot-free go into

905
00:34:18,109 --> 00:34:15,690
area 51 for sure

906
00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:18,119
you know and he embraces that whole idea

907
00:34:22,579 --> 00:34:20,220
of being a nut because he knows it keeps

908
00:34:24,169 --> 00:34:22,589
him safe yeah it keeps the idea out

909
00:34:26,180 --> 00:34:24,179
there that if you saw something well

910
00:34:27,710 --> 00:34:26,190
tell it to chuck you know and that's

911
00:34:29,569 --> 00:34:27,720
really what he wants he wants to be the

912
00:34:31,730 --> 00:34:29,579
guy you call up because you know he's

913
00:34:33,230 --> 00:34:31,740
kind of crazy about this stuff and and

914
00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:33,240
then that makes it easier for him to get

915
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:35,250
his information yeah I mean he's been to

916
00:34:39,379 --> 00:34:37,260
the ringer so much you mentioned earlier

917
00:34:41,450 --> 00:34:39,389
he was fired from his job like what do

918
00:34:42,859 --> 00:34:41,460
you have left to lose at that point you

919
00:34:45,290 --> 00:34:42,869
know you're your own wife doesn't

920
00:34:48,349 --> 00:34:45,300
believe you yeah your job lets you go

921
00:34:50,659 --> 00:34:48,359
you're so entrenched in this like what

922
00:34:53,899 --> 00:34:50,669
do you have to lose by being the UFO nut

923
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:53,909
yeah yeah it's interesting Chuck such a

924
00:35:00,319 --> 00:34:57,210
nice guy and he is level-headed I mean

925
00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:00,329
let's not let's not get that wrong while

926
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:01,920
he is a believer he's extremely

927
00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:03,450
objective he doesn't believe that

928
00:35:08,089 --> 00:35:05,609
everything is connected to aliens for

929
00:35:10,670 --> 00:35:08,099
sure yeah you do such a good job of

930
00:35:12,650 --> 00:35:10,680
crafting the quote-unquote character of

931
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:12,660
Chuck so definitely want to give you

932
00:35:18,319 --> 00:35:15,599
kudos on that then why do you think the

933
00:35:20,569 --> 00:35:18,329
mainstream has such an issue we're

934
00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:20,579
taking this topic of UFO seriously why

935
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:23,609
is there fed x-files music behind every

936
00:35:28,210 --> 00:35:26,160
news coverage of it that smirk the side

937
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:28,220
odd glance is it part of that whole

938
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,440
ridicule factor from above just make fun

939
00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:33,599
of it and the truth will never get out

940
00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:36,480
there you know your book is a mainstream

941
00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:38,190
book you're a New York Times bestselling

942
00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:40,500
author I mean that's going to open the

943
00:35:45,950 --> 00:35:44,040
doors for this topic obviously the

944
00:35:47,780 --> 00:35:45,960
serious researchers out there have to

945
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,790
commend you on that but what why do you

946
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:50,160
think it's not taken seriously I'm sure

947
00:35:54,319 --> 00:35:52,079
you've you yourself have experienced

948
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:54,329
some ridicule in your your book tour and

949
00:35:58,609 --> 00:35:56,730
with your interviews why what why is

950
00:35:59,390 --> 00:35:58,619
this the case yeah I mean I think it's

951
00:36:02,569 --> 00:35:59,400
interesting you know so I think

952
00:36:05,780 --> 00:36:02,579
originally it probably was more on

953
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:05,790
purpose you know back in the 40s and 50s

954
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,400
when when sightings happen the Air Force

955
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:10,079
would send you know Air Force personnel

956
00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:13,140
to these UFO symposium to these sites

957
00:36:15,890 --> 00:36:14,790
they would give interviews and say yeah

958
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:15,900
I don't know what that is you know they

959
00:36:20,329 --> 00:36:18,690
would make it as much sort of they knew

960
00:36:22,370 --> 00:36:20,339
it was mocked and they knew that they

961
00:36:24,260 --> 00:36:22,380
could sort of use that to cover up

962
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:24,270
whatever it is they were doing I think

963
00:36:29,309 --> 00:36:27,089
initially it was on purpose it became

964
00:36:31,289 --> 00:36:29,319
such an impossible to believe

965
00:36:34,739 --> 00:36:31,299
Aereo and then Hollywood had a lot to do

966
00:36:36,299 --> 00:36:34,749
with it um you know the current year

967
00:36:38,130 --> 00:36:36,309
things like the x-files and things like

968
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:38,140
that everyone knows about it everyone

969
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:40,150
talked about it but it's just considered

970
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:42,130
kind of a joke it's kind of a you know

971
00:36:46,769 --> 00:36:44,890
crazies and and wildness and people see

972
00:36:50,130 --> 00:36:46,779
stuff and I think it's just sort of a

973
00:36:51,779 --> 00:36:50,140
defense mechanism for people it's you

974
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:51,789
know you don't you don't know what the

975
00:36:54,839 --> 00:36:53,170
heck it is you're seeing so it's easy

976
00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:54,849
just to say okay little green men that

977
00:36:58,859 --> 00:36:57,190
sort of thing and and so scientists

978
00:37:01,199 --> 00:36:58,869
themselves can't really look at it

979
00:37:03,539 --> 00:37:01,209
seriously without getting laughed at in

980
00:37:05,609 --> 00:37:03,549
March so it sort of just builds on

981
00:37:07,499 --> 00:37:05,619
itself I think things are changing you

982
00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:07,509
know thirty years ago people didn't

983
00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:09,369
believe the idea in life another planet

984
00:37:13,229 --> 00:37:11,380
that seemed just you know farcical

985
00:37:15,059 --> 00:37:13,239
there's no way there can be like that

986
00:37:16,979 --> 00:37:15,069
anywhere but here but now we pretty much

987
00:37:19,049 --> 00:37:16,989
everyone believe that somewhere out

988
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:19,059
there there's probably life you know

989
00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:20,650
we're finding like earth-like planets

990
00:37:24,029 --> 00:37:22,420
all the time and people used to believe

991
00:37:26,219 --> 00:37:24,039
it's way too far away you know the

992
00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:26,229
distances are too vast and now we don't

993
00:37:29,759 --> 00:37:28,209
believe that anymore either we know that

994
00:37:31,829 --> 00:37:29,769
some of these stars are not that far

995
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:31,839
away and we could probably reach some of

996
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:34,569
them with current technology so those

997
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:36,160
ideas are definitely changing and I

998
00:37:42,089 --> 00:37:38,890
think the idea of visitation will slowly

999
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:42,099
become more and more believable but you

1000
00:37:44,939 --> 00:37:43,359
know there's just always going to be

1001
00:37:46,469 --> 00:37:44,949
this jokey factor to it you know you

1002
00:37:49,170 --> 00:37:46,479
watch ancient aliens which is really

1003
00:37:51,739 --> 00:37:49,180
funny to watch but the majority of

1004
00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:51,749
people watching that show are you know

1005
00:37:57,539 --> 00:37:54,940
either stoned or or make fun of it which

1006
00:37:59,910 --> 00:37:57,549
is totally fine and that doesn't make it

1007
00:38:02,599 --> 00:37:59,920
any worse to show but it's not something

1008
00:38:04,650 --> 00:38:02,609
taken seriously you know you don't have

1009
00:38:07,439 --> 00:38:04,660
symposiums at Harvard around it or if

1010
00:38:11,699 --> 00:38:07,449
you do and how well offended but I think

1011
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:11,709
that that stuff will change when when

1012
00:38:15,539 --> 00:38:13,690
the government releases files that will

1013
00:38:17,699 --> 00:38:15,549
will change people's minds about that I

1014
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:17,709
do think we're reaching a point where

1015
00:38:22,829 --> 00:38:19,690
some of this evidence will come forward

1016
00:38:25,049 --> 00:38:22,839
and will change all of this I think it's

1017
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:25,059
just unlikely that you know that we're

1018
00:38:30,299 --> 00:38:26,910
going to stay like this for much longer

1019
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:30,309
because people do believe in the

1020
00:38:33,870 --> 00:38:32,049
sciences they just won't talk about it

1021
00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:33,880
you know I talk to a lot of Aeronautics

1022
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:35,529
engineer who are believers people at

1023
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:37,690
NASA were believers pilots who are

1024
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:40,209
believers Air Force personnel who are

1025
00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:41,890
believers politicians who are believers

1026
00:38:45,210 --> 00:38:43,240
there's a lot of people

1027
00:38:47,579 --> 00:38:45,220
believe we just can't really talk about

1028
00:38:51,870 --> 00:38:47,589
it in public because they risk losing

1029
00:38:55,230 --> 00:38:51,880
their jobs you know so I think that will

1030
00:38:57,839 --> 00:38:55,240
change it's not so bad that it's kind of

1031
00:39:00,690 --> 00:38:57,849
mocked because it allows sort of people

1032
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:00,700
to talk about it you know without having

1033
00:39:05,849 --> 00:39:03,910
to risk things yeah but but eventually I

1034
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:05,859
think that will change and I think

1035
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:07,210
people will you know the word will

1036
00:39:12,089 --> 00:39:09,040
eventually get out that's a great point

1037
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:12,099
are there any cases Ben that you feel

1038
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:14,770
with in ufology should be like at the

1039
00:39:20,730 --> 00:39:17,920
front and center as this consciousness

1040
00:39:23,339 --> 00:39:20,740
sort of converges into belief what what

1041
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:23,349
cases would you say someone should look

1042
00:39:27,690 --> 00:39:25,650
at if they're just getting into this of

1043
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:27,700
possible visitation

1044
00:39:30,540 --> 00:39:29,200
well I mean Roswell obviously is

1045
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:30,550
something that you know but it's been

1046
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:31,810
written about millions and millions of

1047
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:33,730
times it's not a new thing I think the

1048
00:39:39,390 --> 00:39:36,880
Rendlesham forest thing in England is a

1049
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:39,400
is a definitely very intriguing

1050
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:42,010
interesting story that hasn't really you

1051
00:39:46,829 --> 00:39:44,530
know been covered very well

1052
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:46,839
Dulcy mountain is is there's a lot

1053
00:39:50,579 --> 00:39:48,910
written back and forth about it most

1054
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:50,589
likely I think it's just a military base

1055
00:39:55,380 --> 00:39:53,170
of some sort which will won't ever get

1056
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:55,390
information about but but that's

1057
00:40:00,329 --> 00:39:58,690
something people look into you know it's

1058
00:40:02,099 --> 00:40:00,339
the kind of thing where you know

1059
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:02,109
whenever there's a sighting there should

1060
00:40:06,930 --> 00:40:04,210
be some sort of official investigation

1061
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:06,940
to a conclusion and that's what's really

1062
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:09,190
missing you know you'll see there'll be

1063
00:40:13,859 --> 00:40:11,230
some sort of weird thing in the sky that

1064
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:13,869
a hundred people will report it'll be

1065
00:40:17,820 --> 00:40:15,730
covered by the news and then it just

1066
00:40:19,770 --> 00:40:17,830
goes away yes you know nobody looks at

1067
00:40:21,690 --> 00:40:19,780
it nobody comes to a week later you

1068
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:21,700
don't hear what it was and that's kind

1069
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:24,400
of what's missing is this in real

1070
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:26,530
investigation afterward look if there

1071
00:40:31,290 --> 00:40:28,570
was a shooting and a hundred people

1072
00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:31,300
witnessed it there would be a trial and

1073
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:33,670
someone would go to jail that would be

1074
00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:36,010
enough 100 businesses is more than

1075
00:40:40,530 --> 00:40:38,440
enough to convict someone of murder 100

1076
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:40,540
witnesses should certainly be enough to

1077
00:40:45,359 --> 00:40:42,490
inspire an investigation into a sighting

1078
00:40:49,050 --> 00:40:45,369
and and so I think those things need to

1079
00:40:52,109 --> 00:40:49,060
be covered well so yeah I mean you know

1080
00:40:54,150 --> 00:40:52,119
who knows but I don't have any real

1081
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:54,160
answers for anybody but I do think

1082
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:55,570
there's just enough evidence out there

1083
00:40:59,370 --> 00:40:57,010
to at least pull

1084
00:41:02,220 --> 00:40:59,380
in that direction yeah so that's

1085
00:41:04,620 --> 00:41:02,230
yeah absolutely and I mean well I said

1086
00:41:06,810 --> 00:41:04,630
earlier Ben I'm I'm a screenwriter and

1087
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:06,820
playwright here in New York but by trade

1088
00:41:12,780 --> 00:41:09,310
but I sort of always been interested in

1089
00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:12,790
UFOs you've taken this approach in your

1090
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:15,550
writing where it's very interesting I

1091
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:16,960
remember hearing you speak about the

1092
00:41:20,220 --> 00:41:18,490
film version already being in

1093
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,230
development for the book and you cater

1094
00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:22,480
your writing of the book to this feature

1095
00:41:28,170 --> 00:41:25,180
endeavor as your process of writing

1096
00:41:30,990 --> 00:41:28,180
changed at all by using this this new

1097
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:31,000
approach of kind of looking ahead before

1098
00:41:36,060 --> 00:41:33,910
you've even created it's very intriguing

1099
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:36,070
and I would assume that's where the the

1100
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:38,050
business in the market is going in terms

1101
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:40,930
of being a professional writer right you

1102
00:41:45,090 --> 00:41:43,330
know so I've always wanted to write both

1103
00:41:47,610 --> 00:41:45,100
books and movies I've never wanted a

1104
00:41:49,590 --> 00:41:47,620
book just to be a book so whenever I sit

1105
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:49,600
down to write a project I won't write it

1106
00:41:53,730 --> 00:41:51,130
if I don't think there can be a movie

1107
00:41:56,070 --> 00:41:53,740
involved ever since or I did the movies

1108
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:56,080
21 in the social network and ever since

1109
00:42:00,690 --> 00:41:58,450
those projects I've been in a position

1110
00:42:03,060 --> 00:42:00,700
where I can sell the movie before I

1111
00:42:04,530 --> 00:42:03,070
write the book so I've actually all the

1112
00:42:07,260 --> 00:42:04,540
last eight books that I've done I've

1113
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:07,270
sold his movies before I sold the book I

1114
00:42:13,350 --> 00:42:10,170
put together a 14 to 20 page proposal

1115
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:13,360
and that's the selling tool and so the

1116
00:42:18,180 --> 00:42:15,970
movie is already set up 37 parallel set

1117
00:42:20,940 --> 00:42:18,190
up a new line with the producers at San

1118
00:42:23,250 --> 00:42:20,950
Andreas and the upcoming Baywatch and

1119
00:42:24,780 --> 00:42:23,260
and that allows a screenwriter be

1120
00:42:26,850 --> 00:42:24,790
brought in early you can be developing

1121
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:26,860
the movie while you write the book I

1122
00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:28,330
just think there's a synergy between

1123
00:42:32,220 --> 00:42:30,310
books and movies now most good movies

1124
00:42:35,250 --> 00:42:32,230
are either based on a book or a comic

1125
00:42:37,950 --> 00:42:35,260
book you don't have you know there's no

1126
00:42:39,690 --> 00:42:37,960
real separation anymore um so I feel

1127
00:42:41,790 --> 00:42:39,700
like that for me always been I don't

1128
00:42:43,230 --> 00:42:41,800
think my writing has changed I've always

1129
00:42:45,690 --> 00:42:43,240
for better or worse been a very visual

1130
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:45,700
writer yeah and I've always wanted to

1131
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:47,410
write even nonfiction I write nonfiction

1132
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:49,930
but I write it like a movie or like a

1133
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:51,760
thriller and I certainly get critique

1134
00:42:55,380 --> 00:42:54,130
for it there are definitely critics who

1135
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:55,390
don't like the way I write nonfiction

1136
00:43:01,170 --> 00:42:57,930
but uh but you know I just feel like

1137
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:01,180
it's a really good way to tell a story

1138
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:04,090
and it's a movie brings you a much

1139
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:04,960
bigger audience

1140
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:07,090
obviously it allows you to sort of tell

1141
00:43:10,380 --> 00:43:10,150
the story in a different way and and it

1142
00:43:11,849 --> 00:43:10,390
gives

1143
00:43:13,650 --> 00:43:11,859
other people a chance to weigh in as

1144
00:43:16,319 --> 00:43:13,660
well and I just think it's a it's a

1145
00:43:18,539 --> 00:43:16,329
really great sort of way to tell a story

1146
00:43:21,690 --> 00:43:18,549
and then I I think if it can't be a good

1147
00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:21,700
movie isn't it can't be a good book why

1148
00:43:25,319 --> 00:43:23,200
you could write a great book that

1149
00:43:28,170 --> 00:43:25,329
shouldn't also be a movie I mean there's

1150
00:43:31,620 --> 00:43:28,180
just plenty of projects you know that

1151
00:43:33,660 --> 00:43:31,630
can be both so right yeah absolutely and

1152
00:43:36,990 --> 00:43:33,670
I mean like you said you you've now

1153
00:43:38,819 --> 00:43:37,000
brought this topic into a a mainstream

1154
00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:38,829
publishing house and a mainstream movie

1155
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:40,900
studio like that's that's what it needs

1156
00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:43,690
and you've done that how is the feedback

1157
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:46,750
then with the 37th parallel so far um

1158
00:43:50,279 --> 00:43:48,730
yeah so it's you know the book kind of

1159
00:43:53,099 --> 00:43:50,289
came out of the gate very fast and

1160
00:43:55,170 --> 00:43:53,109
explosive it's doing very well a lot of

1161
00:43:57,150 --> 00:43:55,180
people seem to take to it I think I

1162
00:43:58,890 --> 00:43:57,160
think you know it's opened itself to a

1163
00:44:00,180 --> 00:43:58,900
big audience you know there is not to

1164
00:44:02,130 --> 00:44:00,190
say that everyone who picks it up as a

1165
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:02,140
believer where it comes out a believer

1166
00:44:07,859 --> 00:44:05,410
but a lot more people you know have come

1167
00:44:09,539 --> 00:44:07,869
to me saying you know I got to tell you

1168
00:44:12,359 --> 00:44:09,549
I never really tell anybody but I saw

1169
00:44:15,180 --> 00:44:12,369
something or or I I my mom saw something

1170
00:44:16,589 --> 00:44:15,190
or I get that so often now and so it's

1171
00:44:19,019 --> 00:44:16,599
really intriguing to me that this

1172
00:44:22,319 --> 00:44:19,029
phenomenon touches way more people than

1173
00:44:24,509 --> 00:44:22,329
people realize it's been very a positive

1174
00:44:26,970 --> 00:44:24,519
thing I've been very happy to to be

1175
00:44:28,049 --> 00:44:26,980
embraced by the UFO community you know

1176
00:44:30,420 --> 00:44:28,059
that was something I didn't necessarily

1177
00:44:32,190 --> 00:44:30,430
expect because I'm coming from the

1178
00:44:33,870 --> 00:44:32,200
outside often I write about topics when

1179
00:44:35,370 --> 00:44:33,880
I'm an outsider up and often you get

1180
00:44:36,839 --> 00:44:35,380
attacked yeah like people in the

1181
00:44:39,329 --> 00:44:36,849
community don't like an outsider coming

1182
00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:39,339
in this has been different this has been

1183
00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:40,630
embrace I think people have been very

1184
00:44:44,490 --> 00:44:42,670
happy that I'm trying to bring this to

1185
00:44:46,740 --> 00:44:44,500
mainstream audience even though it can

1186
00:44:48,539 --> 00:44:46,750
be seen it can seem very basic to people

1187
00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:48,549
who really know what they're talking

1188
00:44:54,269 --> 00:44:51,900
about read most of these stories before

1189
00:44:56,730 --> 00:44:54,279
they understand what I'm trying to do

1190
00:44:59,130 --> 00:44:56,740
but it's been really amazing you know

1191
00:45:01,499 --> 00:44:59,140
there's been a lot of emails and a lot

1192
00:45:03,569 --> 00:45:01,509
of comments on and you know I'm on

1193
00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:03,579
Twitter so I get to see a lot of it

1194
00:45:09,390 --> 00:45:06,190
which has been great yeah it I think

1195
00:45:11,069 --> 00:45:09,400
it's been an awesome launch so it's a

1196
00:45:14,279 --> 00:45:11,079
topic that really touches a lot more

1197
00:45:16,049 --> 00:45:14,289
people than I realize and you know you

1198
00:45:17,549 --> 00:45:16,059
expect it to be just crazy people who

1199
00:45:20,190 --> 00:45:17,559
live in the Midwest and that's not what

1200
00:45:22,589 --> 00:45:20,200
it it's really people from all walks of

1201
00:45:24,749 --> 00:45:22,599
life who who are really intrigued by the

1202
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:24,759
idea of us

1203
00:45:29,819 --> 00:45:26,529
and and so it's been very positive

1204
00:45:32,370 --> 00:45:29,829
that's great to hear yeah I mean there's

1205
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:32,380
so much material out there on this topic

1206
00:45:35,970 --> 00:45:34,690
that is sure God well my advice people

1207
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:35,980
say in the industry are thinking of

1208
00:45:39,989 --> 00:45:37,569
writing books about it or thinking of

1209
00:45:43,410 --> 00:45:39,999
getting about is the whole key I think

1210
00:45:46,380 --> 00:45:43,420
to this phenomenon is to take it as

1211
00:45:47,549 --> 00:45:46,390
seriously as you can what I mean by that

1212
00:45:49,319 --> 00:45:47,559
is you know sometimes you're

1213
00:45:51,089 --> 00:45:49,329
interviewing someone about something

1214
00:45:52,979 --> 00:45:51,099
they saw and they can sound very

1215
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:52,989
credible and they have really you know

1216
00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:54,640
an interesting experience that obviously

1217
00:45:59,549 --> 00:45:57,190
was real to them but then they go off on

1218
00:46:01,259 --> 00:45:59,559
tangents about Bigfoot and goats and all

1219
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:01,269
these other things and that's going to

1220
00:46:07,259 --> 00:46:03,730
be a lot harder for the mainstream to

1221
00:46:11,150 --> 00:46:07,269
accept yes you know you have to focus on

1222
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:11,160
on the thing that is most easily

1223
00:46:16,109 --> 00:46:13,359
rational you know the most rational

1224
00:46:17,970 --> 00:46:16,119
I think the UFO thing is something you

1225
00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:17,980
can communicate well because everyone's

1226
00:46:21,809 --> 00:46:20,049
kind of intrigued by the idea and the

1227
00:46:24,029 --> 00:46:21,819
idea isn't that far-fetched you know

1228
00:46:27,029 --> 00:46:24,039
yeah the idea that something came here

1229
00:46:29,069 --> 00:46:27,039
at some point in our history it's very

1230
00:46:30,660 --> 00:46:29,079
possible but when you start talking

1231
00:46:33,450 --> 00:46:30,670
about other phenomenon that are less

1232
00:46:35,940 --> 00:46:33,460
likely or more hard to grab you lose

1233
00:46:38,249 --> 00:46:35,950
your credibility and a lot of times you

1234
00:46:40,259 --> 00:46:38,259
know I pick up books about UFOs and

1235
00:46:41,339 --> 00:46:40,269
they're going off on tangents that are

1236
00:46:44,009 --> 00:46:41,349
going to be very hard for people to

1237
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:44,019
accept and that's that's where it kind

1238
00:46:50,670 --> 00:46:48,160
of shades the whole phenomenon yeah in a

1239
00:46:53,489 --> 00:46:50,680
lot of ways and the Roswell story is it

1240
00:46:55,769 --> 00:46:53,499
is part of that the facts of Roswell

1241
00:46:58,979 --> 00:46:55,779
really intriguing and incredible and you

1242
00:47:01,289 --> 00:46:58,989
don't need to add in you know alien

1243
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:01,299
autopsies and bodies and things like

1244
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:02,970
that whether or not they're real or not

1245
00:47:09,150 --> 00:47:06,249
it's when you start throwing in that

1246
00:47:10,739 --> 00:47:09,160
that you lose people you know don't they

1247
00:47:12,479 --> 00:47:10,749
right and it's really fixed to the Air

1248
00:47:14,190 --> 00:47:12,489
Force putting out a press release saying

1249
00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:14,200
they found a flying saucer because

1250
00:47:17,789 --> 00:47:15,910
everyone wants to know what the heck's

1251
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:17,799
going on with that yeah you start

1252
00:47:21,779 --> 00:47:19,119
talking about basement filled with

1253
00:47:23,759 --> 00:47:21,789
little bodies you lose people yeah and

1254
00:47:26,009 --> 00:47:23,769
so that's that's what I stand on that ya

1255
00:47:27,930 --> 00:47:26,019
know that's a good point I mean it does

1256
00:47:30,299 --> 00:47:27,940
it's not to say that these all these

1257
00:47:33,049 --> 00:47:30,309
esoteric topics are connected it should

1258
00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:33,059
let's start here and work our way out

1259
00:47:37,770 --> 00:47:35,700
exactly let's start where we can start

1260
00:47:40,650 --> 00:47:37,780
we'll go with you on

1261
00:47:42,030 --> 00:47:40,660
because there's enough there and any of

1262
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:42,040
look if you have proof of alien bodies

1263
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:44,290
go with that but that's going to be a

1264
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:46,390
lot harder for people to accept without

1265
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:48,910
seeing an alien body yeah then are there

1266
00:47:53,730 --> 00:47:51,760
any other sort of paranormal topics you

1267
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:53,740
either plan on or would like to cover in

1268
00:47:59,160 --> 00:47:56,050
future books has this opened your mind

1269
00:48:02,190 --> 00:47:59,170
at all to talking about a Bigfoot or

1270
00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:02,200
lock me out sure I have any plans going

1271
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:04,960
forward in that realm I'm always open to

1272
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:07,210
story and you know I find my stories

1273
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:09,010
people pitch me people send me things

1274
00:48:12,090 --> 00:48:10,510
emails people call me Evan have you

1275
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:12,100
heard about this guy that's how all my

1276
00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:14,290
stories come to me yeah um so yeah i

1277
00:48:18,990 --> 00:48:16,900
mean i if something really credible and

1278
00:48:21,210 --> 00:48:19,000
intriguing was sent to me i would look

1279
00:48:22,410 --> 00:48:21,220
into it it would it would have to be you

1280
00:48:24,570 --> 00:48:22,420
know something you haven't seen before

1281
00:48:28,050 --> 00:48:24,580
it would have to be a story that you

1282
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:28,060
know is i could really dig into but i

1283
00:48:32,610 --> 00:48:29,170
don't have anything at the moment

1284
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:32,620
planned out in that realm you know I'm

1285
00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:34,210
always open to seeing and looking at

1286
00:48:37,530 --> 00:48:36,160
evidence looking at important things but

1287
00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:37,540
but no I don't have anything right now

1288
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:38,830
that in that world

1289
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:40,810
gotcha yeah I may be oggi you got your

1290
00:48:46,530 --> 00:48:42,690
hands full I would imagine up with a

1291
00:48:48,570 --> 00:48:46,540
movie coming up what exactly the 37th

1292
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:48,580
parallel has been I definitely want to

1293
00:48:53,490 --> 00:48:50,410
leave up to the readers it's very

1294
00:48:55,860 --> 00:48:53,500
intriguing this um this line throughout

1295
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:55,870
the United States that Chuck uncovered

1296
00:48:59,280 --> 00:48:57,610
and you subsequently have sort of

1297
00:49:01,650 --> 00:48:59,290
uncovered it's very interesting

1298
00:49:03,750 --> 00:49:01,660
um do you want to maybe talk about that

1299
00:49:05,490 --> 00:49:03,760
briefly without giving away too much

1300
00:49:08,460 --> 00:49:05,500
well I mean the idea of the 37th

1301
00:49:11,250 --> 00:49:08,470
parallel is the Chuck's research has

1302
00:49:14,070 --> 00:49:11,260
sort of taken him down this this pathway

1303
00:49:16,830 --> 00:49:14,080
he believes that the majority of animal

1304
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,840
into late animal mutilation and UFO

1305
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:18,880
sightings occur along the 37th parallel

1306
00:49:23,550 --> 00:49:21,310
the United States which is this latitude

1307
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:23,560
line that runs from one end of the

1308
00:49:27,150 --> 00:49:25,690
country to the other it also turns out

1309
00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:27,160
that most of America's underground

1310
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:31,030
military bases are on the 37th parallel

1311
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:34,000
from area 51 to the Pentagon Cheyenne

1312
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:36,370
Mountain Fort Knox and then it turns out

1313
00:49:40,410 --> 00:49:38,290
that most American Indian burial sites

1314
00:49:42,420 --> 00:49:40,420
are along the 37th parallel as well

1315
00:49:44,670 --> 00:49:42,430
which is interesting they have a very

1316
00:49:47,220 --> 00:49:44,680
strong UFO component to them start

1317
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:47,230
travelers and and a sort of a belief in

1318
00:49:51,420 --> 00:49:49,810
the people coming from the start so all

1319
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:51,430
of these things seemed

1320
00:49:56,790 --> 00:49:54,400
together on the 37th parallel and so

1321
00:49:59,130 --> 00:49:56,800
Chuck focuses a lot of his research and

1322
00:50:01,680 --> 00:49:59,140
a lot of his travels along that line um

1323
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:01,690
and and so that's kind of where the book

1324
00:50:07,170 --> 00:50:05,170
you know has its center but yeah it's

1325
00:50:10,170 --> 00:50:07,180
interesting it really is and you have

1326
00:50:13,410 --> 00:50:10,180
some pretty intriguing photos as well

1327
00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:13,420
all credited to truck which is really

1328
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:15,190
cool you get a sense of who this guy

1329
00:50:21,390 --> 00:50:19,210
actually is and again like I highly

1330
00:50:23,930 --> 00:50:21,400
suggest people grab the book to see

1331
00:50:26,220 --> 00:50:23,940
these photos especially the maps of

1332
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:26,230
everything that has been found on this

1333
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:28,089
parallel it's just it's study when you

1334
00:50:32,819 --> 00:50:30,609
actually look at it and can see it in

1335
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:32,829
front of you rather than hearing it so

1336
00:50:38,609 --> 00:50:35,770
very intriguing but where can we find

1337
00:50:41,819 --> 00:50:38,619
the book and more about what you do sure

1338
00:50:44,460 --> 00:50:41,829
so you can find me at Ben Mezrich on

1339
00:50:46,950 --> 00:50:44,470
Twitter or Ben Mezrich calm as my

1340
00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:46,960
website and so on Facebook as well the

1341
00:50:51,359 --> 00:50:48,700
book should be everywhere you know every

1342
00:50:53,370 --> 00:50:51,369
airport and book story Amazon or

1343
00:50:55,410 --> 00:50:53,380
wherever you want to find it it should

1344
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:55,420
be out there so uh hopefully people will

1345
00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:58,000
pick it up awesome and again guys the

1346
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:00,400
book is the 37th parallel the secret

1347
00:51:04,829 --> 00:51:03,190
truth behind America's UFO highway Ben I

1348
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:04,839
I want to thank you for coming on today

1349
00:51:10,980 --> 00:51:07,510
it's been very refreshing having someone

1350
00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:10,990
from the mainstream talk about this

1351
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:12,790
topic and give it the credibility it

1352
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:14,770
deserves so again I have to commend you

1353
00:51:19,260 --> 00:51:16,960
on that and we can't wait to see this

1354
00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:19,270
story continue to unfold those I'm sure

1355
00:51:24,839 --> 00:51:21,910
Chuck is still out there investigating

1356
00:51:26,370 --> 00:51:24,849
these wrenches um and we can't wait to

1357
00:51:28,349 --> 00:51:26,380
see this come to life on the big screen

1358
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:28,359
man so again thank you so much for

1359
00:51:31,950 --> 00:51:30,160
joining us well thank you for having me

1360
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:31,960
I appreciate it all right that is it for

1361
00:51:35,940 --> 00:51:34,089
this week's episode guys again thank you

1362
00:51:37,740 --> 00:51:35,950
to shannon leg row for letting me use

1363
00:51:40,559 --> 00:51:37,750
this interview and thank you to Ben

1364
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:40,569
Mezrich as well please check out all of

1365
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:42,210
Ben's books you can find them all on

1366
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:45,730
Amazon not hard to find and that's it

1367
00:51:49,319 --> 00:51:46,930
that's all I got for you guys this week

1368
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:49,329
again I am doing a lot of traveling in

1369
00:51:54,030 --> 00:51:51,730
this month so please bear with me as I

1370
00:51:56,250 --> 00:51:54,040
try to get these episodes out on time I

1371
00:51:58,740 --> 00:51:56,260
do have some awesome interviews coming

1372
00:52:00,720 --> 00:51:58,750
up scheduled in the roster so keep an

1373
00:52:03,230 --> 00:52:00,730
eye out for that you can find all of my

1374
00:52:05,540 --> 00:52:03,240
stuff at someone's guys calm

1375
00:52:07,460 --> 00:52:05,550
we're on Twitter at somewhere skies if

1376
00:52:10,609 --> 00:52:07,470
you have any guests or topic suggestions

1377
00:52:15,020 --> 00:52:10,619
you can always email me at spread 5-1 at

1378
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:15,030
hotmail.com yes no ancient hotmail it's

1379
00:52:18,410 --> 00:52:16,290
a little embarrassing but it's all I

1380
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:18,420
have right now having some issues of the

1381
00:52:21,650 --> 00:52:20,609
summer and this guy's email so yeah if

1382
00:52:23,150 --> 00:52:21,660
you want to reach out to me you can

1383
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:23,160
always contact me through the website as

1384
00:52:26,089 --> 00:52:24,450
well where you can find all past

1385
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:26,099
episodes that's somewhere in the skies

1386
00:52:31,940 --> 00:52:29,730
calm please please rate and review the

1387
00:52:34,790 --> 00:52:31,950
show on iTunes we are getting very close

1388
00:52:37,220 --> 00:52:34,800
to getting on the what's hot part of our

1389
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:37,230
section on iTunes so that is very

1390
00:52:40,849 --> 00:52:38,970
exciting but I can't do that without

1391
00:52:43,099 --> 00:52:40,859
your guy's help so please rate and

1392
00:52:45,620 --> 00:52:43,109
review the show on iTunes it helps more

1393
00:52:48,170 --> 00:52:45,630
than you know that is it guys I will see

1394
00:52:49,849 --> 00:52:48,180
you here hopefully next Monday and

1395
00:53:02,010 --> 00:52:49,859
remember keep your feet on the ground

1396
00:53:02,020 --> 00:53:06,680
[Music]

1397
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:10,350
this has been some kind production to